Overpowered versus Light

What engines to use, how to fix them, gasoline/diesel, etc
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Georg Weinstabl
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:27 am

Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:19 am

Hi Georg
I lost somewhere my password to Volga forum and therefore I catch you beyond the forum - on Niveko mail address.
I have a 1982 Volga boat – strictly the same model as yours (narrow body with zmz53 and v-drive). Unfortunately my Gaz53 takes water to the engine oil and it can be both something very minor as good as very, very serious damage. It will come clear Saturday.
In case of the second scenario I consider general change – replacing the old engine with Chevy 350 small block (I have here a specialist to get and do such engine at reasonable price).
Considering the change, I am writing you - as a person associated with marine gearboxes business – as far as I remember your company represents ZF Marine.
And here my question comes:
DO YOU HAVE AN IDEA, IF THE ZF V63 IV (RECOMMENDED MANY TIMES AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE ORIGINAL VOLGA V-DRIVE) WILL FIT THE 310HP CHEVY 350, OR IT IS TOO WEAK AND THAT ENGINE REQUIRES A STRONGER V-DRIVE?
There are no cases like this on the forum - Micker in his Danish “Mighty Hydro” uses a heavy duty Crusader v-drive, but it works with 7,8ltr Big Block above 400HP, and Jim Pedra uses Chevy350 but with Z-drive …)
WOULD IT GO WITH ZF V63?
Regards
Gil

-----

Dear Tomasz,

Your question is not unjustified. The counterquestion: Do you use the same propeller? The original propeller was built to transmit 90 HP into the water.
The gearbox is an intermediate element which transfers the power. I believe, that unless you do not buy a different propeller requiring more power from an engine, you do not increase the torque on the driveline. You obviously only transfer 90 HP ( of 250 or 400 HP ) to a propeller.

You should be aware, that once having a problem with a rope or wire coming into the propeller clogging it you will then see what happens to that gearbox!
You should not unnecessarily overpower a Volga. The foils and the body are made for 36 knots and you reportedly encounter serious strength problems over 40 kn.
The shape of the aft propeller strut is not made for a bigger propeller and thus needs changes.

My proposed configuration (light engine 250 kg, 170 HP + ZF 63IV approx 60 kg) should give sense as you save 100 – 200 kgs on the boat. The chevy 350 small block is cast iron and weighs probably same like the gaz53, if not more. The heavier gearbox (crusader, ZF 80IV or else ) would weigh probably same or +/- 30 kgs of the original configuration. Now I ask: What for? For running the same small propeller of the Volga 70?

The answer is on the hand. It would be easily understood when taking in consideration that small Lotus Cars were winning many races, but overpowered Mustangs or Corvettes could never beat them in performance. Having a boat with 5 – 15% less weight means much more than having more power you will not be able to transfer + with all its weight.

Chosing big or small US V8s is just a matter of sound and will be a cheap configuration but not for best performance. Dinko uses a 120 HP 2nd hand old Mercedes diesel engine and his Volga performs wonderful.


Best regards,
Georg

P.S. We do not sell ZF gearboxes anymore.
Last edited by Georg Weinstabl on Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

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Georg Weinstabl
Posts: 248
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Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:35 am

That's funny :-)
We go back to the same solution that I myself recommended to someone else on
the forum - OM603 + ZF 63 IV :-)
You are right, that this solution make sense, and the emotional constraint
in getting rid of V8 idea is the bloody sound...
When I started my engine for the first time, I got crazy about the wonderful
roar.
On sunday I will get the diagnosis, what is going on there in my engine, so
we will see.

What strongly hit me in your letter is the approach to the configuration
changes in the light of boat performance i.e. that the reduction of overal
weight means lot more compared with "employing" more power horses.
By the way that would be interesting topic on the forum: "performance of our
boats" - to get all the ideas of how to SAFELY and EFFECTIVELY increase the
dynamic pleasure of using "the russian lady" :-)

Anyway thank you very much for your valuable advice and the good example of
Lotus.

with best regards

Gil
ps. In case I need ZF63IV, would I be able to get an offer from you, as ZF
distributor?
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

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Georg Weinstabl
Posts: 248
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Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:37 am

Hi,

We are not anymore ZF distributors. My suggestion would be that you buy one together with a Friend who buys a Volvo engine only and let him order it together with it. The price should be somewhere between 1500 and 2000 EUR. I have to look it up from my old price lists.

best regards,
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

sandflite
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by sandflite » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:20 pm

Hi guys!

I'm thinking to change the transmission as well. The problem is that ZF 63 series are DIRECT mount gearboxes. The only remote mount model is ZF 220 V, but it is TOO heavy, powerfull and expansive... :?

Any suggestions?

christian tabakoff
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 9:26 am

Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by christian tabakoff » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:21 am

Hi Tomazs,
where do you live?
If you are in the EU it will not be a problem for you to buy a new crate engine GAZ 53 from stock in Bulgaria.
If you are in the US or Canada try a friends shop - perfornace research in Columbus Ohio - you will find them on the net, they marinize small blocks and blue- print them for stock car races and Indy car. Very good shop, reasonable prices.

Gaz 53 Engines come fully dressed on a crate/ europallette : generator, starter, distributor, ignition coil, clutch and clutch bell.
Produced between 1980-1990 Factory NEW from liquidation of warehouse stock.
Price Euro 2800-3200 per engine - Sofia or other city.
After purchase I recommend a light engine tuning - see thread engine spares. stage 1. it will improve efficiency ca 15-20 % - increase of compression from 6,7 up to 9-9,5, head porting, intake plenum porting, balancing of crankshaft, con rods and pistons from +- 15,00 grams to +- 0,50gram , tune of oil pump etc.
Stage 2 could be converting the engine to LPG - as all GAZ 53 and Gaz 66 trucks that are still on the road have been converted to LPG as, no one can afford to run a truck carrying 4 tons consuming 22-28 liters of petrol worth E 1,25 per litre. / converted to Lpg- autogas the running costs are lower than for a diesel engine with similar output, oil-change instead of every 200 h only at 350-400h. engine life doubles compared to petrol/
This can be done here at the shop of friend mechanic .
You just keep the old copper exhaust parts- they hold a life.
If interested contact me.
best regards,
Christian

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Georg Weinstabl
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Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:07 am

Dear Sandflite,

Your statement that ZF 63 series are flanged on engines is correct. The ZF 63 IV is an so-called integral v-drive to flange on engines. The ZF 220 V is a remote v-drive. Being an integral v-drive this does not mean, that you can not use the ZF 63 IV in remote V-drive configuration.

Like any other remote V-drive the ZF 63 IV is to be used in combination with a propshaft coupling and should also have an integral shaft support. This configuration lets someone use the original bracket and shaftline and differs from the original setup as you replace the russian v-drive and the russian gearbox with a single ZF 63 IV gearbox. The propshaft + integral shaft support should be however obligatory to use.

An integral shaft support is an aluminium bell housing including a coupling and a short stub shaft with flanged output. This bell housing has a bearing and a bearing bracket. Reason for use of this integral shaft support is to support the heavyness of the prop-shaft (cardan shaft) as such additional weight will definitely DAMAGE the bearings of the engine if not used.

Most modern marine engines do already have SAE connections and the bell housings have the same SAE connections too, so there is no fitting or fiddling trouble. Integral shaft supports are produced by companies like VULKAN, STROMAG, CENTA or Rexnord or REICH (these ones are known to me). I will add a photo of such support for everbody's reference.

The use of the heavy old fashioned ZF 220 V is absolutely unsuitable. Modifications on the ZF 63 IV may be to dismount the unuseful bellhousing or cut it off.

Once changing the original configuraton I would recommend to change also to a diesel engine. Preferably one with revs that are less than 3000 rpm.

Only the change of the gearbox + v-drive into ZF-63IV should save you approximately 50 kg.

I may do silly things but you can thrust me on this gearbox selection.
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

Gil
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Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Poland

Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Gil » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:25 pm

Hi Christian,
thank you for your answer - I will definitely contact you soon on priv, as I would like to pass the details regarding your advices to the team, who deals with my engine.
It may also happen that I will need some parts available in Bulgaria, so if it was possible to use you contacts - would be great.
My engine has been taken out of boat now and is being inspected - first conclusions are that we save the original. Uff :-)
I am located in Poland, so it is no so far.
Regards
Tomasz
Gil

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Georg Weinstabl
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Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:05 pm

Please contact Christian Tabakhoff for Bulgarian Spares.

best regards,
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

Volga70
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Volga70 » Wed May 30, 2012 11:24 am

Does anyone have a working setup with the ZF 63 IV at this moment? If so, could you explain how you installed it into the boat, including some pictures?

Thanks,
Maurits

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Georg Weinstabl
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Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:11 pm

Van: RMW
Verzonden: dinsdag 11 september 2012 15:07
Aan: Albert
Onderwerp: Gearbox ZF 63

Hello,

I have a volga hydrofoil boat and want to convert it with a new transmission. A member of the Volga-hydrofoil-forum gave me your contact data. His name is Georg Weinstabl.
Could you give me some information about this transmission? What information do you need from the old transmission, propeller and installed engine?

Regards

rmw
---------------


From: Albert [mailto:albert@poseidon-bv.nl]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 5:27 PM
To: georg@niveko.com
Subject: FW: Gearbox ZF 63

Hi Georg,

It was nice talking to you again,

Thanks for the lead! (see below) While we are talking this came in.

Do you know any details of him or his project?

I will get in touch with him and will get you informed if I have any progress…….

Best regards,

Albert van Wijk
albert@poseidon-bv.nl
+31 (0)6 538 63 099


---------------

;-))) Hi Albert,

These guys are buddies of mine! Most of them running on low budget, so the most pocket friendly solution will be prefered.

Original set-up of engine is
Russian Gaz 53L 4,3 l, V8 gasoline, 90 BHP at 2800 rpm,
Reduction gearbox 1,5:1
+ V-drive, shaft,
+stainless steel propeller approx 32 cm diameter,
+3-bladed highly pitched.
+rudder blade stainless steel

They probably would like to install a modern diesel engine (120 – 220 BHP at 2800 – 4000 rpm)
Up to their choice (I recommend: Steyr, VW, FSM or similar, important is that it has 250 – 300 kg and not more)

They would need from you
+Integrated shaft support (Vulkan, Centa or similar) or Python if applicable.
+Propshaft (if necessary)
+ZF63IV remote V-drive gearbox ratio 1,5 – 2,0:1 (They might be able to get from engine manufacturer, I enclose the datasheet)
+semi elastic mounts
+thicker shaft if necessary
+stuffing box or mechanical seals
+stainless steel propeller (if necessary)

Optional could be:
Replacement of stainless steel rudder with GFK wing-type rudder with extra ass-lift capacity (nominal top speed 36 knots)

With this new configuration, the boat should save
Approx 100-150 kg on engine
Approx 50 kg on replacing GB and V-drive with ZF63IV
Approx 10 kg on rudder + additional 10 – 50 kg lift capacity

Lumpsum: 150 to 200 kg total + gaining more possibilities for fuel tanks = longer range and also should be able to save fuel.
Most ideal engine should be 5cyl. VW engine which is no more produced. (250 kg).
With all these gimmicks probably 5-25.000 EUR(including engine) could be easily spent, but not speed, but only(?) efficiency, range and carrying capacity can be achieved.

Please ask Werner what engine he plans to use. Our buddies usually install 2nd hand engines which are weightwise not wise, but cheap.

If someone has an original set-up like me, it is a hard decision to though away the original stuff and get something new … also expensive to do so.
However very reasonable once the config is worn-out and needs replacements. The Russian technology from that time is nice, but is not widthstanding any contemporary solution like above described.

If you should be interested for more please visit our site
http://volga-hydrofoil.net/

I will be available for any further technical question or solution. The outcome would be very interesting for me as well, as I am not happy with my original configuration.

I was running several seatrials now with my Volga (original set-up) and we can’t get up to nominal speed as we are lurking with 2600 rpm still at about 15 – 20 knots and not over 30 and never 36 kn. I also believe my boat should not be too heavy and the foils were cleaned from marine growth. The engine just seems to be a miserable cripple, I suppose? We will test again some days later with a new nozzle&pin on the carburetor. It just sucks to be a heavy slow fat slag!

Best regards,
Georg Weinstabl
Attachments
DS-ZF_63_IV.pdf
ZF 63 IV
(448.2 KiB) Downloaded 1610 times
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

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Georg Weinstabl
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Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:49 pm

Integral shaft support

Hi All,

Someone recently asked how to connect an engine with the remote v-drive gearbox type ZF 63 IV.

Every engine has to have a coupling between itself and the gearbox. A remote V-drive gearbox needs a prop-shaft (Kardan connection element).

http://www.vulkan.com/fileadmin/product ... 20data.pdf

Above link is from a well known german producer of elastic couplings. Integral shaft support is a bellhousing attached to engine containing the flexible coupling and a bearing for carrying the weight of the prop-shaft. If this item is not used, the weight of the propshaft might damage the bearings of the engines crankshaft. The integral shaft support can be skipped if the propshaft is very short and/or light (Epoxy Carbon Fiber tube).

The propshaft itself has to be provided from somewhere else. It might be also possible to use the old Russian shaft which has a gear coupling.

There are also other bidders for such items like Reich, Centa, Stromag, Rexnord or similar. Vulkan might be the most expensive of all. I estimate a cost of approx 700 EUR for coupling and bell housing. Another option could be a Python or Aqua-drive with machined connection to the engine and a prop shaft.

Best regards,
Georg Weinstabl
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

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Georg Weinstabl
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Re: Overpowered versus Light

Post by Georg Weinstabl » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:26 pm

Showing bell housing.JPG
This picture shows an engine assembly at the vicinity of the flywheel.
You can see an integrated shaft support, cardan shafts and other elements:
Georg
Motorboat ''Flying Carpet''
Istanbul

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